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November 30, 2010

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Mark Sleboda/the Scythian

IMHO the discrepancy between the state department cables and reality is more than just wrong 'assumptions'. The neoconservative Bush II administration 'wanted' it to be true, and this atmosphere obviously created a similar atmosphere in the foreign service. It was a process of writing their own narrative of events and then using the slightest, most questionable source of information (in this case Tblisi) to verify their their own worldview - much like how the Bush admin and the nation's press largely made themselves believe that their were WMD's in Iraq, mostly from lies that Chalabi was feeding them - because they 'wanted' it to be true.
I may be splitting hairs here - but it seems to me there is a difference from simply working from a false set of assumptions and scripting your own entirely false narrative of the reality and then looking for the excuse to believe it...That is the difference between ignorance and malevolant delusion...

Patrick Armstrong

But I do not say this.
1. The US view was widely spread in the West.
2. The Western media was parroting the Tbilisi line as well.

Patrick Armstrong

I have misspelled Metin's surname -- it is SONMEZ.
He is associated with two websites
http://www.circassianworld.com/new/
and
http://www.abkhazworld.com/

I recommend these two sites to people who want to learn more about this part of the world than is available in the Western MSM.

Thomas Schmidt

"I knew that they (Ossetians) were only in Georgia because Stalin-Jughashvili had put them there and that they wanted out."
It's simply not true

Thomas Schmidt

I hope you have been misinformed. Otherwise, you misinform the public.

Patrick Armstrong

According the maps I have seen all -- or mostly all -- of Ossetia was in the Terek District in the Empire. It may (but where are the maps?) been part of King David's Georgia.
The Ossetians fought the SD Republic of Georgian in the 1920s.

When Stalin and Ordjonikidze (see "Georgian Affair) invaded, southern Ossetia was included in the TCSFSR and, when that disappeared, in the Georgian SSR.

Abkhazia in the Empire was in the Sukhum District of the Black Sea District.
Georgia existed in two parts Kutais and Tiflis.

The borders of the Georgian SSR that we all recognised are the creations of Stalin ably assisted by Beria (see Mingrelian Affair). And it took some time before they were established in their present form.

Nick

Must read

The Stalin-Beria Terror in Abkhazia, 1936-1953, by Stephen D. Shenfield
http://www.abkhazworld.com/abkhazia/history/499-stalin-beria-terror-in-abkhazia-1936-53-by-stephen-shenfield.html

Declaration of the Revolutionary Committee of the SSR of Georgia on Independence of the SSR of Abkhazia - 21 May 1921
http://www.abkhazworld.com/articles/reports/190

Dr. Andrew Andersen

As a historian I confirm that the so-called "South Ossetia" has been part of Georgian states since at least 600 B.C and up until the incorporation of Eastern Georgia into Russian Empire in 1801. After that it was part of the province of Tiflis and between 1918-1921 was part of the DR of Georgia.

That is confirmed by ALL HISTORICAL maps published in Russia, Britain, Germany, USA, etc at least until 1991.

All other insinuation are products of ignorance or dishonesty

Sveta Kazaridi

Patrick Armstrong, how much you got paid from KGB swines? I wish you, your kids, and their kids live in country ruled by KGB, like today's Russia. If you have had a clue what it looks and feels like, you whould had never betrayed western ideas.

Malchus

Samachablo always was a part of Kartalinian-Kakhetian Kingdom and become the part of Russian Empire in 1801 when Russian annexed above mentioned kingdom.
In 19-th century they created co-called "Ossetian okrug (district)" there. They always new very well how divide to rule. But still, until the construction of Roki tunnel and slow migration of Rissian-speaking Ossetians from Northern slopes of the Caucasus, there was nopt a single occurence of hostility between Georgians and Ossetians.
P.S. Hey, Patrick, are you on Russians payroll ar something?!:)

Vito Dzanatti

Freedom for Ossetia! Stop Georgians nazism !

NetNomad

Totally agree with Dr.Andrew Anderson, Sveta Kazaridi, Malchus, ...
I am taking a glance and trying to guess when Mr. Armstrong got recruited by KGB comrades
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Armstrong_(political_analyst)

Vito Dzanatti

"Samachablo" -it,s a fascist term of georgians terrorists . Ossetia never been part of Georgia . It,s remnants of a Stalinist (Georgians by nationality) regime .

David Tarkhnishvili

The comments of Patric Armstrong were disgusting if there were not so stupid. I would not loose time to comment all the bullshit written here, except one:

"What struck me immediately upon reading the reports from Tbilisi was how reliant they were on Official Tbilisi. Had they never talked to Okruashvili, or Kitsmarishvili?"

- in the reports, there is a clear statement on the military actions against Georgian villages and Georgian peacekeepers, causing casualties, which is NOT "just reports of official Tbilisi", and a lot of other things recorded by OSCE observers etc. The Armstrong has only thing to say - he sends the ambassador to the extreme opposition such as Okruashvili (which is under trial accused in corruption and hiding himself in France since 2007) and suggests to ask him whether Saakashvili was preparing the war.
Excellent. That's the only argument of Kremlin guys and their most likely paid proxies/ who swollowed their tongues after publishing the Wikileak staff on the August 2008 war.

George

Well, dear Patrick, judging by the prolificity and proportion of slanderous comments in your latest articles, one can infer that your GAZPROM's allowance is pretty generous. Reading yours loads of calumny is an insult to the memory of about 450 Georgians perished under the boot of Putin the Scumbag. You seem to be bereft of any notion of honor and disgrace, but I personally feel ashamed for entire humanity, as it periodically produces venal people like you.

Dr. Andrew Andersen

Ha-ha! My historical maps are accompanied by the maps of Ronald Grigor Suny and Robert Hewsen, as well as by the ones published earlier.

Thus according to the so-calle "Ossetian historians" ALL HISTORICAL MAPS ARE FALSE
:)))))))))

You guys are funny.

The only existing Ossetia is "Ossetia-Alania" - an "autonomous" territory of the Russian Caucasus.

The so-called "South Ossetia" was created by Stalin and Orjonikidze on Georgian territory in order to plant an ethnic time-bomb.

Everyone knows that including Ossetians. However human lies and human degradation have no limits, especially in Russia

Dr. Andrew Andersen

Actually, historical "бешенство пигмеев" is a cool and funny show. :)))

Vito Dzanatti

Dr. Andrew Andersen russophobe and a liar .he deftly manipulates the facts , but half-truths - it is a lie .

David Tarkhnishvili

Hey, "Dzanatti", from which part of Italy are you guy?

Nick

Perhaps i should say the title: Politized maps on the Caucasus.

And then, includes the fake maps which is created by Andrew Andersen, like: http://www.caucasica.org/photo/il5-6.jpg

http://www.caucasica.org/analytics/detail.php?ID=1145

http://caucasica.org/analytics/detail.php?ID=1156

Nick

http://www.caucasica.org/photo/il5-6.jpg Of course the left one created by A. Andersen.

Daniel Young

Saakashvili is a dumb, a war criminal. His defense ministry quoted Hitler.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBQZkYOyHjY

Dr. Andrew Andersen

Well... well... well...

The map http://www.caucasica.org/photo/il5-6.jpg
is in fact an exact reflection of an old Soviet historical map published by the Academy of Sciences of the USSR. So.. looks like there are too many liars around the world :)))

And the only competent historians are seated in such the centre of civilization known these days Vladikavkaz (Russia) :)))

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